One Stop Doc Shop
Transcript
Episode 9 – Alice Russell
Introduction
(Intro music starts – cinema film reel whirring, and countdown beeps)
Hello and welcome to One Stop Doc Shop, a podcast that celebrates and encourages
diversity in non-fiction filmmaking. In each episode, a guest filmmaker will share
their secrets on how to make award-winning documentaries.
I’m your host Angela Clarke, and this series was made possible with support
from Screen Alliance Wales.
My guest today is double BIFA winning director Alice Russell. Her first short film, Men
Buy Sex, won the SIMA Creative Activism Award and got Vimeo Staff Picks Best of the
Month. Her second short film, Agents of Change was selected as a festival focus at
Sheffield DocFest whilst her third short film Terra Incognita followed a team of female
activist’s scaling the back of reefer ships in the Antarctic.
In 2022, her debut feature doc, If the Streets Were On Fire had its world premiere at
the 66th BFI London Film Festival where it came second in the Audience Award, before
going on to scoop up the Best Feature Documentary and the Raindance Maverick
Awards at the BIFA’s in 2023.
Alice and I talk about her passion for telling authentic stories and finding charismatic
characters who inspire her, the importance of trusting your gut, as well as the
challenges that arise when you juggle projects over many years. As an aside, we also
discussed our shared love of icebergs!
I hope you enjoy listening…..(music ends)
Angela Clarke
Hi Alice, welcome to the podcast.
Alice Russell
Hi Angela, thanks so much having me.
Angela Clarke
It's a pleasure to have you on. So, thank you very much today for taking time out your
schedule, I know everybody's always busy, but it's always really nice to speak to people
that have made really interesting films and also films that are really complex. But before
we get into the details of the films themselves, how did you come into the world of film?
What was your path or road into that world?
Alice Russell
Well so it's slightly convoluted, so I guess I'll try and do the fast version (laughs) which is
I went to university to study psychology, and I chose that because I loved it, but I didn't
know what I wanted to do. So, I thought, great I can buy myself some time and then I got
to end of university and thought, I'm at the end of university and I have no idea what I
want to do! All my mates were moving to London and working in advertising and I was
just a bit like okay that sounds creative and fun, and I want to be in the city. I basically
got a job in advertising, and I hated it. It was so miserable. I was working for a company
that specialized in advertising to children…
Angela Clarke
Oh wow…(laughs)
Alice Russell
Yeah, it was so bleak (laughs) and I guess I just had a bit of an awakening that year of
thinking, what do I want out of a job? I thought I wanted to work in a team, I wanted to do
something creative. I wanted a job that means I can learn constantly about the world
and ideally something that has the potential for a small element of change. You know,
feeling like you're putting something good into the world which was the antithesis of
what the advertising world stood for (laughs).
Basically, from there I started writing to people and tried to get work in TV and realized
that was incredibly hard to achieve. You know at university you get taught to write a
letter, and if you write a letter someone will give you a job! Then I realised that no, the
way you get jobs is you meet people, and they employ you, and that has been the truth
throughout my whole of my career.
And so, I worked in TV for a bit. I really wanted to work on current affairs documentaries
like Panorama and Dispatches and spent many years working up the ladder, you know
as a Runner, Researcher, Assistant Producer, that kind of thing. Then I did start to work
on some of those programmes, (pauses) I won't go into detail given that this is going
online, but I had very negative experience in TV that resulted in a contributor ending up
in a very bad set of circumstances, and it was really devastating for me. Because I was
the person that was kind of building the relationships, but I didn't have any power, but
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because I'd built a relationship, this person had got involved and then they got
completely screwed over by the programme.
Then I was just like, this isn't what I thought it was. I believe in the power of stories, I
know that's like a small world thing, it's like a drop in the ocean. But I think they are
beautiful vehicles for creating empathy and understanding and giving a positive
contribution. I think it's important to treat people in the films with the utmost respect
that you can, and to protect them and that is the bottom line. Without them you know,
documentaries as an industry will die and there will be nothing and I think it's a beautiful
art form.
So, I quit TV and decided that I wanted to try and make my own stuff because it was the
only way that I would be able to look people in the eyes and say fully, I've got your back
and if you say no, we say no, you know? Then I did the mad thing of trying to teach
myself how to use a camera. I went on some free courses as well as just trying to do lots
of different freelance work at the time and then slowly over the years that's kind of
snowballed. Now I’m working with bigger clients, like Greenpeace is one of the main
people that I freelance for and Led By Donkeys and I’m quite lucky now in that I've got
some wonderful NGO organizations that I do a lot of work with, that's quite meaningful
work for me…(laughs) I said this would be short and it wasn't, sorry (laughs) that’s the
long route in and I've just been trying to do jobs on the side and then I make my films
alongside that stuff.
Angela Clarke
I feel your pain, I think I had a similar experience in TV. For me, your word is your bond,
and that's all you've got as a filmmaker and I think it's really difficult to maintain integrity
especially when you're part of a bigger unit, if you are a cog in the wheel and you don't
have all the power…
Alice Russell
Totally…
Angela Clarke
I think that's why it's so important then when you have an experience like that, moving
forward you surround yourself with people that are going to have the same values as
you. So going back a few years now to the first independent film that you made, and I
hadn't seen this before, so I watched it, and I really enjoyed it. It's called Men by Sex.
Can you tell me a little bit about that film and maybe explain a bit about what it is and
how you came across that subject.
Alice Russell
Yeah, Men Buy Sex was my first film as you said, and basically, it's a film with 3 stories
of male experiences of paying for sex, but with women lip syncing the male voices.
They're real male experiences, but female actresses lip-syncing their stories. That was
a very long meandering journey for a short film. It took me two years because I had
absolutely no idea what I was doing and was just feeling it out. I mean I think I still feel
like that in lots of ways. One of my oldest and dearest friends is Alice Birch, who is a
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screenwriter now, but at the time she was working for an on-street sex work charity. We
were having lots of conversations about this, and it was interesting just thinking about
who these men were that were interacting with women from very difficult situations. We
were just having lots of conversations about where the responsibility falls/lies and all
the legislative stuff and anyway, we just went on a bit of a long journey of deciding we
were going to try and do this film. Alice obviously is super busy and has all her own stuff
going on, so she just came with me to do the interviews and helped me get it off the
ground and then I carried on from there. We just did interviews and I think we put an
advert up on Facebook that just said,
“Ever paid for sex?” And then a link through to a
survey and we got around 120 responses, which was bonkers!
Angela Clarke
Really? I was going to ask you about that because when I watched it, I was thinking, oh
that's a wild one I wonder how you go about…
Alice Russell
(Laughs) Finding those people?
Angela Clarke
Yeh recruiting. I was thinking did she just casually go around the pubs asking, “Eh I was
just wondering if you've ever paid for sex?”. (Laughing)
Alice Russell
Yeah exactly (laughing). I mean it was really shocking how many people replied but I
mean not all of them….(pauses) you know some people just filled out the questionnaire,
but the very final question was would you be happy to talk to us about your experiences.
Not committing to being filmed, but just would you be up having a phone call and then it
reduced to a much smaller proportion of people. I reckon maybe we had phone
conversations with about 12 people and then I think we did audio recordings with six or
something, of which three are in the final film.
Angela Clarke
Yeah.
Alice Russell
It was just really interesting meeting them all and hearing what their experiences were,
but the main takeaway after listening to the audio over and over again, which was
subconsciously woven into the language they used when talking about these
experiences, was this language of entitlement to access women's bodies in a way that I
thought I've never heard a woman talk about a man in that way. I'm not saying that it
doesn't happen in that way, and obviously there's loads of complicated shades of
nuance in buying and selling sex, and all different types of people doing it, for all
different types of reasons. But I just thought if you're at a dinner party, it probably
wouldn't surprise you in the same way if you were chatting and a guy said oh yeah, I pay
for sex, whereas if a woman turned around and said I pay for sex you would be like what,
because nobody really talks about that.
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And I was just thinking a lot about the inequality around who the majority of (obviously
we're talking about just heterosexual relationships here), but the majority of people
selling are women and the majority of people buying are men. You can't really ignore
there is a gender inequality dynamic here and it just felt like it would be interesting to
see these words coming out of a female mouth, to just sort of try and figure out how
strange that is and what does it mean. We shot the film in a day….
Angela Clarke
Did you!?
Alice Russell
Yeh, we shot it in a day. And Denise who did the middle interview, which is the very
extreme sex story, I remember when we were filming with her, bless her, every time we
were recording I was thinking oh God the lip sync is out. We kept doing it repeatedly and
I was like please you can do it again? I made her do it so many times and I was so
distressed, thinking this is not going to work. It's not working for some reason. I don't
know what happened, but we got into the edit, and it was just perfect. But it totally
threw me off, so it meant that by the third person in the afternoon, I wasn't very focused
because I was freaking out about the fact that this second one hadn’t worked. But
anyway, that was a very hodgepodge film. (laughing)
Angela Clarke
Well, when you watch it, it doesn't appear like it's a hodgepodge film. I think what I
loved about it was I had no idea what it was, or I hadn’t read about it. I thought I’m just
going watch this, and I quite like doing that. I quite like just watching films and ignoring
whatever's been written about them or descriptions of the film, just going straight into it
and then I was like ohhhh… (laughs and drops voice) I was not expecting that!
Alice Russell
(Laughs)
Angela Clarke
And then what I loved about it was the first chap very much sounded like if he'd had a
receipt for the transaction, he would have tried to get his money back because she
slightly fell short of his expectations! (laughs indignantly) I suppose he was almost
maybe more typical in terms of how you would imagine the conversation would be
around women and women's bodies and entitlement and stuff. That kind of vibe of well
I'm buying a service but obviously I wanted something a bit more than this! But the
second one made me think about class because of the man's accent.
Alice Russell
Mmmm.
Angela Clarke
There was a lovely incongruity between his turn of phrase and his accent. Some of his
turns of phrases were a bit more surprising and I thought I wasn't expecting to hear that
phrase, with a slightly posh voice. The film said a lot more than the eight minutes that it
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inhabited, because it made you think about your own judgments that you have about
people as well because I was thought I wasn't expecting somebody that had a posh
voice to be a part of that.
Alice Russell
Mmmmm.
Angela Clarke
And then I thought actually I don't really know why I thought that, but it was more the
turn the phrase. His turn of phrase felt more like lads in a pub chat, but the accent
didn't fit, so that one was incongruous, and then it was brilliant because the lady that
fronted that lip sync looked very well to do and lovely and like she wouldn’t have said
those things.
Alice Russell
Yeh, yeh.
Angela Clarke
So I was thinking this is a mind boggler (laughing) and also because it was in a really
domestic setting as well, so it just made you think about things in a different way.
Alice Russell
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angela Clarke
And then the last man just seemed to think well I know her, so better the devil you know!
I also like the fact he said she didn't hurry him; I was thinking okay! (laughing)
Alice Russell
Well, I mean I think that was the interesting insight, there were kind of two things really.
One was obviously so much of this is about fantasy, so much of it is about imagining
what this experience is going to be and then you go, and it falls short.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, yeah.
Alice Russell
But the one that was really fascinating was this idea that you know lots of the men, this
was the theme that ran throughout lots of the interviews we did, and not just the
recordings but the phone interviews as well, was this idea that you're paying for
someone and yet they want to go and experience this connection, and desire a kind
girlfriend experience I guess. But you are paying for someone. They aren't choosing you
out of sexual desire, they're choosing you out of economics essentially. And so
inherently the way in which you're engaging in that direction is always going to be quite
strange. And so, it was quite interesting how delusional a lot of the men were around
what this encounter was going to be like, but I mean humans are strange and wonderful
creatures aren't they!
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Angela Clarke
At what point did you decide that you were going to lip-sync with women? Did you wait
until the point that you were having the conversations with the guys? When did you start
to kind of put that visual jigsaw together?
Alice Russell
Oh my God this was why it was such a long process. That's why it took so long because
originally it was going to be this whole animated series. We were going to have an online
platform talking about all the policy and debating the politics of it and stuff. It was so
long ago I can't really remember what happened now. But I think just everybody was like
please dear Lord can you just finish this film! (laughing)
But I think with creative ideas sometimes you have a little seed, and it was definitely
thrown around, that idea was thrown around a lot. At the beginning, we were working
with Fat Rat Films as well. There were four of us, me and Alice and the others were all
throwing those ideas around and I think when you're creating something you tend to go
off down different avenues, because you're not totally sure. You're thinking maybe
there's a bit more flavour of this or it needs to be a bit more like that and what happens
is you just get to a point where you've exhausted lots of those avenues and finally the
same kind of feeling around an idea is there, and it grows in strength. It sort of starts off
as a quiet whisper and becomes this thing where you think that's the absolute right way
of doing this and we just ran at it, getting that on tape and then we knew we had the film,
yeah.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, I just loved everything about it in terms of the domestic setting of it as well. Just
that non-sexual setting. You're just in the kitchen There's stuff around you. Everyday life
is unfurling and it's just that notion that somewhere this stuff is going through
somebody's mind or somebody's doing that at that moment.
Alice Russell
Well yeah, because I think it was just about wanting to make it feel very non exciting and
normal because I think the conversations we were having at the time, for example Billy
Piper's Diary of A Call Girl was around, and I think a lot of the conversations around
buying and selling sex is either about people on street, which is the really bleak hard end
of it, or you get this glamorized sexy young woman who loves having sex and is selling it
and it's so empowering. I think that's problematic because whilst there will be people
that live like that, of course there will, because there's all different shades within this
industry. But that is such a tiny slice of the pie and to glamorize it in that way, in the
mainstream makes people think that is what the majority experience is and it's not, you
know.
Women are choosing it because they don't have other economic means and that might
make most sense. They might not hate it, but often women are choosing it because it's
the best way of making money, rather than choosing it because they love to have sex, do
you know what I mean?
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Angela Clarke
Yeah, absolutely and I think your third male voice that appears, he seemed slightly more
compassionate or he certainly named the lady that he was with, but it was just in casual
passing when he says something like so I went in and she just she took off her tracksuit
bottoms but obviously kept on her top! Just that little phrase speaks volumes and you're
like wow that is not a considered an act of passion or love then, is it?
Alice Russell
No, exactly?
Angela Clarke
I've literally done the bare minimum of taking off what I needed to!
Alice Russell
Yes, it’s like come on then get on with it. You know, even though she's not rushing him.
It's just like come on, get on me and then we'll just kind of you know…
Angela Clarke
But he just said it in such an unfiltered way, like he didn't have any expectations that she
was going to maybe take her top off. It was just very matter of fact and as you say there
was a truth in his as well. I that he was slightly unfiltered about how he said it. So, I just
thought it was interesting.
Alice Russell
I'll just say one final thing which was also interesting because we also spoke to sex
workers as well to ask what their experiences were in the kind of deep research phase.
The beginning was a deep research phase, before we were really thinking about ideas.
But you know (one woman) just said I started off selling sex and it was awful. I was
working in this place where women were having sex with 15 men a day and their bodies
were ruined from that. Like there's a physical cost to that and she said it was hell so she
just like decided to move into the BDSM scene.
And she said that was great because then she could have four clients a week and she
wouldn’t even have to have sex with them. She had a partner at the time, so I said when
you get home what kind of happens in your mind? Do you share these stories and she
said no, when I get home, I just can't remember anything from my day! And I just found
that so striking because I was thinking that is deep trauma. If you get home and you
have just wiped it from your brain. Like there's a lot of complicated stuff here sort of,
you know….
Angela Clarke
Yeah, a lot of unspoken stuff as well. It was interesting what you learn about the women
through the narration of the men's experience of it because I think that's what I enjoyed
about the film. It spoke volumes beyond the things that it just discussed. The class
angles and the expectations etc, so if anyone hasn't watched it, you can go and seek it
out on your web page.
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So, the next short that you made was called Agents of Change, so do you want to tell us
a little bit about that film as well?
Alice Russell
Yep, so that was much faster and that was filming with an activist called Josh Virasami
and he was organizing a protest just before Trump was elected. At the time, I'd seen
him, well I'd been to an environmental activism meeting, and around that time there
was a big activism campaign called Bridges Not Walls and there were loads of banners
dropped over all the bridges in London. It was a very white space and I remember going
to the meeting because I wanted to get involved with activism, I wanted to go do some
activism and Josh stood up at the meeting. He was very passionate, and he was talking
about intersectionality and how this space was failing lots of people and I just
immediately thought I love this guy. I love his fire, I love his eloquence, his passion and I
just thought he was interesting. Anyway, I ended up getting a job going to America where
I was interviewing women about tights, and it was just so bleak…(laughs)
Angela Clarke
(Laughs)
Alice Russell
I was having this weird experience in America interviewing women about tights and I
was watching everything on the internet, you know people were organizing around
Trump and I felt like I was missing out in this moment that I wanted to be involved in. I
saw Josh was organising this party or this protest and I said can I come along and film
you? It was fast. I think that film was made in something like five weeks. I went and
filmed with him a couple of times, and he told that beautiful metaphor about the
caterpillar and the transformation of society and how it resembles the caterpillar
transforming in the chrysalis and I just thought I just love your mind. And yeah, so that
was that one really. It was very fast.
Angela Clarke
At the start at the start of that, and Men Buy Sex, did you have a strategy in terms of
where you wanted to take the films or what the film's endpoint was going to be? Did you
think I want to go to this festival or that festival, because I know certainly from my point
of view I didn't have any strategy. I started making the film and the film was the thing
that kind of consumed me. Then I thought I will worry about where it goes afterwards.
And I’ve now subsequently learnt you’re supposed to think a lot more about that at the
beginning. I just wondered if you the same, or did you have a kind of plan?
Alice Russell
Yeah, no absolutely the same. When I did Men Buy Sex I didn't know about film
festivals, I didn't know anything. I didn't know what the cool things were. Like we got
Vimeo Staff Pick of the Month which obviously now is anybody's dream for making a
short film, but at the time I just didn't know what that was.
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With Agents of Change, similarly I just sort of made things because I felt the insanity
that comes on when you're making a film and you become obsessed with something
and you want to make it. I think it's a hard line to balance when you're being drawn by
intuition, creating something and wanting to do something and obviously I've learnt
loads of things now that are so integral to telling stories that make me a better
storyteller. But there's a trade-off between being too logically analytical about things
and your intuition…
Angela Clarke
I think there is something lovely about just trusting your gut and thinking I've met
somebody; we’ve got shared interest, there's a vibe here. There's a connection that
you’ve got with Joshua and obviously you can tell there's a kind of intimacy there and I
think there's something quite freeing about that because it can allow you to go down
paths and take different angles and options that you maybe wouldn’t explore if you've
got a bit more of a rigid framework within which you must work from the off. There are
strengths and weaknesses to both aren't they? But I think that's what I love about short
films, it allows you that freedom to learn to trust your gut and go with it. Did you have a
budget for that, or did you do that one off your own back?
Alice Russell
No Agents of Change was just like completely made with no money at all. Yeah.
Angela Clarke
So I think there's something lovely about that because you've got nobody to answer to
so in a way you can just kind of roll with it. I think that does allow you to be creative in a
way that it helps build your confidence I think as a filmmaker when you can do that.
Alice Russell
Totally feeling it out yeh. I think it’s quite reassuring hearing you say all that and I think I
need to stop deceiving myself because that is how I work. I am slow. It takes me a while
you know. I would like more opportunities to tell more stories. But I think realistically I
am someone who most of my films will be things that I connect to, and then I will find a
way to tell them. That inevitably sort of takes time and needs to be created in a
framework where there is space. That has been the way all my films have been made, so
maybe that is the way that I make films, I don't know.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, also I think it comes back down to what you said earlier about having integrity. You
know, it does allow you just to give a bit more assurances when you build those
relationships with people as well. You are asking people to open up, and you are asking
to spend time with people when you make any film aren't you? I've seen or I've heard
other people talk in a more transactional way where they're like well I'm not their friend
and that's not what I'm there to do and I think yeah, but also you are there to honour
your word and I find it hard to walk away from that and be like right this is the boundaries
that we set because it's quite a messy process I think.
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Alice Russell
Totally and I think I'm not saying that I'm best mates with everybody that I film with, but I
genuinely care about everybody and I think people saying I'm not your friend then it falls
into this really dangerous extractivism because you're just going in like is this benefiting
this person's life, what are they getting out of it, what are you getting out? And I just think
you must be so mindful, there are so many ethical dilemmas when it comes to
documentaries and one should be thinking about them all the time and making sure
that you're not falling into any of those pitfalls, so connection is so important for me
personally.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, me too. But I think also it was a weird one because when I was watching Agents of
Change I thought obviously that was a few years ago now that you released it and it had
a film festival run. But at the same time, I was thinking how mad it is now, looking at the
contents of that film and it had been about Trump and now we are in 2024 thinking God
Trump's lurking again….
Alice Russell
Yup he’s gonna come back again I know! You're thinking how, he was nearly impeached,
what the hell?
Angela Clarke
I know it's mind boggling, but I thought it's so nuts. When you look at something like that
and even in a relatively short space of time, you're thinking history has just repeated
itself. So that one felt a bit more pertinent again because you think it's still got
resonance now. But yeah, that's interesting what you said about Joshua as well and
about activism. I think it's not until you watch something you think, you don't see many
people that look like Joshua in that space or that you hear from, to the same degree, and
so that intrigued me. But as you say, he had a great energy to him as well which makes
that engaging to watch.
Alice Russell
Yeah. I think a group of us went and did one of the weapons factory blockades in the UK
for Gaza like a couple of months ago and I hadn't seen him in years, and he turned up
again and his energy was just amazing. You know how he sort of motivates people and
brings joy and you know he's just a special person to be around. I think that has been a
theme, apart from Men Buy Sex, because it was obviously quite different. But I think all
the other films I have made; I've met people who I just think are really amazing and
inspiring and want to celebrate them through film and I think that's been quite a strong
flavour in all of them.
Angela Clarke
Well, it's good to know he's still going strong and hopefully he’s still making giant piñatas
as well which I very much enjoyed (laughing). That was a lot of paper mâché. I had this
notion of him trying to wrangle on the Tube with that massive Trump head (laughing).
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Alice Russell
Ah, yes, I think I did actually film him on the Tube, I think there is stuff with him which
was just so silly. But I mean what was nice also is because that’s so not what you
normally see in activism right? The idea of being like, let's have a big party but that is
such an important part of the social glue of activism, is having a good time together and
a revolutionary spirit and the drums and all that kind of stuff is just as important.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, that’s the thing. I'm also so used to associating piñatas with like tiny children
battering those things and then when you see adults properly whacking into a giant
Trump head (laughing) I was thinking why do we not do that more? That looks like really
good fun. But yeah, I was thinking I really hope she had a shot of him trying to wrangle
through the turns styles on the Tube, with a train person saying you can't take that
through, you’ve not paid for a ticket, whilst trying to get it through the doors.
Alice Russell
I think I did have that but sadly I didn’t put it in. (Laughs)
Angela Clarke
Well, that needs to be released as a DVD extra immediately. I’d have paid top dollar to
see that (laughing). You know when you’re watching something and you think how did he
get that here, there needs some explanation Alice come on and what are you playing at?
Well onto your next short then, I was going to ask how that came about, so that was
Terra Incognita in 2021. Do you want to tell us a bit about that film then?
Alice Russell
Yup, so Terra Incognita is about a group of female activists on boarding on a
Greenpeace vessel boarding, they're called reefer vessels, which are big freezer boats.
They're the last link in the chain of fishing in Antarctica, the last sort of corrupt link that
enables smaller fisher boats to stay out for a longer amount of time and exceed fishing
quotas and whatnot. These women were doing this action at the end of the world, and I
had been employed by Greenpeace to go and document this action. I had this kind of
incredible experience in Antarctica which obviously in itself is a very surreal, beautiful,
weird, strange place to get to experience. I think I'd been on one expedition, on one of
their boats before that. Maybe two at a push.
But when I was on the ship, I was just really struck by how many amazing women there
were. There were female boat drivers, there were female engineers, there were female
climbers. There was just this real powerhouse of women and often ships can be quite
male dominated environments and I think back in the day they were heavily populated
with male egos. It's not like that now, but I did feel something very special about being in
this strange place with all these amazing women. My job was to document everything
that was happening out there and provide news clips or whatever.
But I just sort of suddenly felt oh I think there's a film that I want to tell, and I was just
obsessed with icebergs, I don't know if anybody else has as much stock footage of
icebergs as I do now. There was just me with this huge tripod running from side to side
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of the ship running over to like film another iceberg because they were just so
extraordinary.
Angela Clarke
They are kind of mesmerizing when you watch them, like the colour is so insane isn't it?
The light overall is so insane but then it just looks, with the best well in the world, they
always just look fake because there's something so weird about the solidity and the
stillness of it, compared to those boats where the sea is so choppy and that's what….
Alice Russell
Well, that shot was amazing, that opening shot because the ship was going past so it
was acting like a huge dolly and the waves were really still so I was just like oh my God
this is amazing cinema, I didn't really have to do anything. Other than kind of stand….
Angela Clarke
Yeah, because I was wondering I was like that is super steady. What has she done with
that…
Alice Russell
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was just really calm water and I mean in the region they’re
beautiful because they're these big cathedrals of ice and around the bottom of the
icebergs is this bright brilliant blue and when they carve off, they sound like thunder
crackling and it's just like amazing. There's nothing like it, there. Have you been to that
part of the world too?
Angela Clarke
I've not been there, but I filmed in Iceland on the big lake where they did the James Bond
car chase years ago and that's the same. But what was insane was I was with the sound
man at the time and the sound man lent me his headphones and you could just hear the
crack as you say when bits broke off. But yeah, I mean I could have stood watching that
all the live long day.
Alice Russell
Oh my God that sounds like an incredible experience.
Angela Clarke
I mean the colours were insane, the light was insane, and you are literally looking at just
the tip of the iceberg and you're getting that sense of how big they are, and they are so
beautiful. But yeah, absolutely mesmerising,
Alice Russell
They're so beautiful, but it's also I think Antarctica is such a (pauses), we weren't on the
main peninsula we were on the South Orkney’s which is just north of the main peninsula
and there's nothing there. It's just grey, an infinity of greyness and so the icebergs would
kind of puncture that and anyway, this isn't a podcast about icebergs but.. (Laughing)
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Angela Clarke
I mean it could be. We're in charge, we can make it what we want it to be (laughing)
Alice Russell
And then basically they did this action, and I think for a few reasons it sort of didn't quite
get the media coverage that they'd hoped for back in the UK, and I was just like wow we
just did this mad thing. These women climbing on this bow over freezing Antarctic
waters, it was really dangerous, and you can't really get that across in the footage, but I
just thought I want to make something to capture this moment because to me
something really beautiful had happened.
You know there was that feeling, there was the women, there was the landscape, and
there's this beautiful, beautiful music track by Nom which was actually in a friend's film
called Another News Story and I'd heard it, and I thought it's just such a beautiful,
mesmerizing track. So, I'd written to them and asked could I use this because it's just
perfect. And then one of my best friends introduced me to Ursula Le Guin many moons
ago now, and she has this beautiful bit of nonfiction writing which was a graduation
speech that she gave to a university which you hear at the beginning and the end of the
film about women and how we see ourselves and this idea that everything is this
melting pot… I can't even remember it now, the quote….
Angela Clarke
Well, I wrote it down.
‘It was on the maps men draw, there is an immense white area
Terra Incognita where most women live, that country is all yours, to explore, to inhabit, to
describe’
.
Alice Russell
Thank you. You know how beautiful is that? As an idea, as a metaphor, yet we're in this
place, off the map and women are doing these incredible extraordinary things and I just
find her words so inspiring and beautiful and poetic, and it just became this sort of
swirling thing. I think the more things that got added in, the more momentum happened,
and I was just in my little tiny bunk editing nonstop with one of the main activists getting
her to sit under a duvet and asking can you just say the voice over again, but more
slower (laughs) you know we just looked like lunatics sat there. But we were just having
lots of fun making it. Similarly, it's one those things where you don't know where it's
going but I showed it to a couple of people and most people were like what the hell is
this you know?
Angela Clarke
Really?
Alice Russell
Yeah. Nothing happened. Then you feel terrible, and I think it was coming around to
International Women's Day and Greenpeace are just amazing and Daphne who is the
head of the media team there, she introduced me to the international team and one of
the guys there was like we love it, we want to put it out. And then Girls in Film also
sweetly supported it by putting out on International Women's Day. Then it was great
15
because I just had loads of women writing to me on Instagram saying I love this piece; it
really inspired me. And it’s so touching when people enjoy the work so much that they
want to write to you to tell you. I sort of realized that’s all the reasons that I loved it, and I
loved Ursula Le Guin’s work, and I loved watching them resonate with it too and
suddenly it all feels worth it.
You know I think that is the thing when you're making films. It's so solitary and you’re just
kind of taking a punt on something and don't really know what's going to happen to it
and who's going to connect with it. So much of it is you on your own, and it's really
exhausting and difficult to have the motivation to keep going. And then suddenly when
it's released, and people connect to it suddenly you won't remember why you started on
this mad journey (laughing).
Angela Clarke
It's like when people talk about childbirth, they say it's a pain you quickly forget, and it’s
a bit like that with films isn't it. We forget all that stuff where you’re just sat you own
thinking, is this rubbish? I don't know, is this any good? Should I put that bit in? Maybe
I'll take it out, I don't know what I'm doing...(laughs)
But I loved it because it's visually beautiful and as you say the soundscape gives it that
kind of eeriness that those spaces have, because they're so big and so quiet in an
insanely beautiful way that think gosh you can really hear yourself think here! And I
think just the fact that the quote from Ursula had mirrored that whole notion of there are
all these women working away in science that you never hear about, that never get the
same spotlight, that never get the same chance to be acknowledged. I love the bit
towards the end of the film, where you’ve got all those lovely stills of women across
different periods of time, because they’re great pictures and just lovely images in and of
themselves.
But it is also a stark reminder as well - why is it still like that? Why don't I know more
about these women? I think that's the thing isn't it. It could have been one of those
things that could have been very easy to overlook, and the film itself just gives you that
snapshot of just like how ballsy they are as well…
Did you climb up that ladder, did you go up?
Alice Russell
No, I'm filming I mean I'm no, no god I didn’t go on the back of a moving ship. Oh my god.
Angela Clarke
You never went on it, because I was going to say, I climbed up a ladder like that once
before somewhere I was filming…
Alice Russell
On the back of a moving ship?
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Angela Clarke
Yeah, we were in the Galapagos and the camera man that I was with, who I was
directing, we went on a ship that they were checking for like illegal sharks fins and stuff
like that and we went on the back of it and it’s the most terrifying thing I have ever done.
And as I was watching it and I was like argh trauma because you think, (pointing north
and laughing) what up here? You want me to go up here? But it's not attached to
anything! It just gave me flashbacks to school when you used to try and do those rope
climbs and suddenly you realize you don't have enough upper body strength to get
anywhere. It's insane.
Alice Russell
Wow, massive respect for doing that because that is super hard and terrifying on a
moving vehicle.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, but I wasn't as bad because he was still holding the cameras, so at least I could
still use two hands. And then somebody had to take up a sniffer dog over their shoulder
as well… (laughing) it was insane.
Alice Russell
I want to see that! (laughs)
Angela Clarke
Yeh on reflection it was a moment that I thought, why did we do that? It was a bit
mental. But just to have that moment, capturing what they are like in that space as well.
The women are just really fearless but also, it's really difficult to get a sense of scale
when you're in that landscape, because everything's so wide and so as I was watching
that that scene, I thought you can never do justice to what that woman has just done.
Alice Russell
No, that was that was the thing that was kind of annoying. I decided not to get a voice
over and say the water is minus whatever or you know, the propellers are under here, so
the audience feel very safe. But I just decided that it was going to become like a love
letter to them. And I think as you were saying about not really seeing women doing this
stuff, I grew up in the Midlands, in suburbia, and I just didn't know that women did stuff
like this like. I didn't have exposure to that.
Particularly being a woman of the 90s, like images of women were either
hypersexualized or they were absent from screen. You know the whole Bechdel Test of
women in films and now we're so thankful that there's so many amazing writers who are
defying that. But I didn't grow up seeing these women. I didn't know that those things
existed, so I think there was part of me that wanted it to be like a love letter to my
younger self or other people who felt like they hadn't seen women doing those kinds of
incredible things.
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I feel so lucky now that occasionally from time to time every couple of years I get to go
on these ships and film on speedboats. Sometimes I can't believe my luck, and a
younger version of myself would never ever imagine that would be something that I
would end up doing.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, just to be in that space and watch people doing things, those locations aren't like
holiday destinations. Nobody goes to them, so that is the privilege of doing that job. I
suppose that's one of the upsides of television that you get to go to these amazing
locations and you're in a moment where you think I would never see this otherwise. I
would never be here. I just wouldn't be in that space and so that's an interesting one
then in terms of that was more a kind of opportunistic project.
Alice Russell
Yeah. Totally.
Angela Clarke
Kind of after the fact, so it wasn't even that you set out intentionally to film, you were
there with Greenpeace as part of, as you mentioned earlier as part of a client thing.
Alice Russell
Exactly and the footage wasn't going to get used and I just thought I have all this
amazing footage. It would be such a sin for it to go into an archive and that's it. And
Greenpeace were generous and allowed me to use all the footage and turn it into a short
film which I think ultimately, they were pleased with in the end because it meant that it
got a wider viewership than it would have done otherwise so.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, absolutely, it's a lovely little film and it's beautiful to watch because it is such a
quiet and haunting landscape, and they are all so remarkable in the midst of that. So, if
anybody hasn't seen it, check it out because the women on it are amazing. I could have
watched a feature on that, they were so good, I wanted to know a bit more but yeah, that
makes sense in context.
So, I guess, all the while, when you've been making these shorts, trundling on in the
background I would imagine for a fair old chunk of that time you’d be engaged making
your feature doc, your first feature doc, If The Streets Were On Fire. Do you want to
explain what the premise of that film is and maybe tell me when did that first start?
When did you get involved in finding those two amazing characters that feature
throughout your film?
Alice Russell
So yeah, that film is about a young community of Londoners who wheelie bicycle under
the banner Knives Down Bikes Up. It's a kind of youth movement as an antidote to the
rising youth violence epidemic. It's following the leader of this big bike movement and a
young father who had a child and turned his life around, away from the world of street
crime and biking is his only respite and family. You see how lots of these young people
18
who live in such proximity to street crime are using biking and this biking community is a
way to escape the harsh reality of living in London now.
That has been a six-year labour of love. They've all been quite chronological to be
honest, I'm not very good at overlapping just because of the amount of creative energy it
takes, but also just the economics of independent filmmaking not paying and needing
to stay afloat. I mean someone recently just quite hilariously said what the hell have you
been doing; you made this film and yet you’ve not started on making a new one and I
just was a bit like it's really hard to make money and I’m trying to stay flow. You know
there comes a point when you must prioritize that because you've spent so long
prioritizing your creative love that it's been quite difficult.
But the whistlestop tour of how I met them all was through riding. There's this event
called Critical Mass; do you know about Critical Mass?
Angela Clarke
Yeah I do. You’re a big cyclist as well, aren't you?
Alice Russell
Yeah, I'm happiest when I’m on my bike. Hilariously at the weekend my mates said can
you just walk next to us? Can you just push your bike and I'm said no, I'm going at the
same speed as you just let me like sit on my bike and peddle it because it makes me
happy.
I met them all through riding on Critical Mass and it was a bit of a long meandering
journey, but I just saw these kids wheeling for the first time and was like wow they had
such impressive skills, they were so sick, so exciting, so wild and I loved that energy. I
asked lots of questions and got led to different people. I was trying to meet up with
various people and it always fell through and became a bit of a nightmare. Then
someone said you need to speak to this guy Mac, he's the kind of gatekeeper of this
community and he runs these events called Bike Stormz which are these big ride outs
where thousands and thousands of kids come together and take over London. I met
Mac and an organization had just released a film which was problematic for the
community and so they'd kind of shut their doors and said they weren’t doing any
filming with anyone.
But I'd sent them some of my short films and kept emailing them and I said look I
don't know what this is, but I'd just love to come and hang out. And then after a couple
of months, Mac got in touch and said come and meet me at this bike shop which is now
sadly closed but used to be this place where any kid could come and get a bike if they
didn't have any money. The guys would build them one, like refresh one from the old
scrap frames and give them the opportunity to ride, so it was an inclusive place for kids
to go.
I remember meeting Mac and he was sat on this stairwell in the back of the bike shop,
and I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I didn't have any radio mics on him or
anything and there’s all this clattering around. It’s so annoying because I did this
19
beautiful interview that I've been cursed with over the years when I've always wanted to
put stuff in I can't because the audio is so bad. But he basically just said this killer line
which was just,
“In life, you have to put kids on a track. If you don't put them on the track
then they're walking on the gravel, and you can't complain when gravel gets kicked up in
your face.
”
And it was so perfect because in 2008 the financial crash came. The Tories
implemented this huge programme of austerity where they decimated everything. Not
just for young people, but in particular for young people. Things like mental health
support, housing support and youth centres. Everything got decimated and then what
happens is, as you see in the stats at the end of the film, there's a period where we wait
to see when the cuts start to bite, and the real term implications of the closure of all
those things, the removal of those support services. Then five years later you watch
youth violence and knife crime going up boom, boom, boom, every year without fail
because you've removed lots of these services that help stem the problem.
Anyway, I've gone off on a detour, but I loved that quote because it was so insightful, it
was such a poetic and insightful way of describing what's going on in our country. If you
don't have things for young people to do, if you are in the most marginalized community,
if you can't access something, of course you're going to be like screw everyone you
know. Of course, you're going to think why should I play by the rules of the game? It's not
really rocket science as to why antisocial behaviour occurs at all.
But from that moment I fell in love with Mac, in the same way that I fell in love with Josh
and all the women on the boat and I just thought, I don't know who this guy is, I don't
know what this journey is, but I know there's something here and I want to hang out
more. At the beginning I think I'd said to him something like I don't really know what this
is going to be, maybe there's a version where I can make you a short film that helps you
do some fundraising for the bike shop, to keep it open. Maybe it'll take about a year and
then I think I don't know how far in we were, but I suddenly realized that this was going to
be a much bigger thing. I think in the beginning I thought maybe next year, maybe next
year, and then I thought this is going to be a long-haul thing.
It's going to be quite a few years, so bear with me and I kept doing this terrible analogy
where I’d say do you want to have a meal in the microwave, or do you want to have a
lamb that's just been roasting in the oven for six hours. I think they were all just like what
the hell are you talking about, we usually eat fried chicken… (laughing)
Angela Clarke
(Laughing) They are probably saying oh God that weird woman's back talking about her
lamb again, I don't know, is she's never going to make this film? Probably not, because
she's constantly cooking lambs for her analogy! (laughs)
I think sometimes when you hear stories or when the story of a film is being presented,
things are so neatly packaged that you think it didn't happen like that! And I kind of
wondered at the start of it, in your head were you thinking this will probably be a short?
Because it's such an intimate film based on their unfolding narratives, which obviously
20
at the start, unless you've got some sort of crystal ball, nobody knows where their
journey is going to take them. Nobody's going to know what's going to happen, or that
knife crime is going to continue to rise and rise.
I suppose what interests me is what do you say to the people that are getting involved in
these films? Can I just kind hang about with you for maybe 5/6 years? Or do you just
say we shall we see where this goes?
Alice Russell
I think weirdly quite early on I had a sense that this needed to be a feature film. But it felt
a bit mad because I'd barely made anything. I was kind just feeling it out and making it
up as I go along and then I'm like writing to the BFI Doc Soc saying I'm going to make a
feature, and they're like are you!? And I'm thinking I am yeah… (laughs)
Angela Clarke
Once I'm finished with my roast, yeah I am. (laughs)
Alice Russell
I don't even like roasts that is what’s so weird…anyway!! At the beginning I think I said to
them something along the lines of can I come and hang out with you? Miles wasn't
involved in the beginning. It was just Mac, but then I kept seeing Miles around and I
thought this guy's amazing, I should make a short film with him. Then I thought no wait,
obviously he should be in the main film. But I think for the first couple of years I said
maybe it's going to take me a year or two. But what was difficult was not having anybody
on board, not knowing where it was going to go, because all the time you're asking
someone to believe in you when they've got no idea what you can deliver. And you know
various things will come up along the way, and you’re saying guys Netflix has said
they're going to watch it, that's exciting or you know things that they could kind of
understand this is maybe a serious thing.
I mean that is what is incredible. Really the fact that they just like allowed me to keep
hanging out with them and I think that's because we were becoming mates. I think for
Mac and Miles, particularly Miles, you know Miles’ mum said to me he never talks, and I
thought that is not my experience. When Miles starts talking honestly with the
interviews you would not know, he does not stop talking. There's not even a breath.
Miles dropped out the education system young and felt like he was stupid and that he
had no hope in life because he was dyslexic and that had never been addressed
properly. He ended up rolling with hardcore criminals and had such low self-esteem, so
no one had ever sat down and said what do you think, how do you feel, or what do you
want?
Miles found his confidence through having the camera. It gave him permission to speak,
so it was really hard to negotiate, to be like please don't give up on me, please trust that
I'm working as hard as I can all the time. I really care about this. What you don't see is
that when I'm not out filming with you, I'm at home editing, I'm always thinking about
this film, I'm always trying to get it off the ground. But asking people to believe when
there isn't a solid thing behind you is so hard and I think it was only until the premiere at
21
London Film Festival that they really got what this had all been for, and it was so
meaningful. Honestly, I just think that was the proudest moment of my life and I don't
know if I'll ever feel like that again. Having all the kids in there, all my mates you know
Mac and Miles' family was just such a celebratory thing. Sorry, I've gone off track totally,
please bring me back.. (laughs)
Angela Clarke
No, no. But I think that's the thing isn't it. It's such a difficult thing because obviously you
can tell by the kind of films that you make and just by your personality there is 100%
conviction in your belief. You've said I will do my utmost to make sure that something
comes of this.
But I think it's hard when you inhabit that space where you're thinking I need to make
this work, there isn't an option for it to fail. But at the same time as the clock starts to
tick I think dealing with those things on your own for a period of time is stressful
because you're in that world of thinking I want to tell them that somebody's shown an
interest in the film, but then also the reality is that when you've worked in TV and Film,
the statistics are what 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 things get picked up. It's no reflection on
whether they're good or bad ideas, it's just the nature of the beast but it's hard to keep
that momentum up because you're torn between thinking do I tell them something,
because I don't want to give somebody false hope either because when you don't work
in that world, it's a really difficult world to get your head around.
Alice Russell
Totally. I think that was the thing, I had this battle because again I was just feeling
everything out for the first time whilst trying to be honest and open but also protective of
them. There were points where I shared things way too prematurely that never came
fruition. And then I obviously felt terrible because just as you said, you’ve given false
hope to people and then I realized that I'm not going to say anything until there's a
definite thing. But I think I was filming for about six months before Julia Nottingham
came on board, who was the exec from Dorothy Street who's amazing.
And she said I'm not doing on the ground kind of producing, but I'll find you a producer.
She set me up a couple of meetings, and I met Gannesh at one of those, who was my
absolute solid sidekick from then on and has been an amazing teammate. And then the
3 of us were putting applications together for the Doc Society and that was when we got
a development grant and I think the thing with independent films is about keeping going.
But I think you must be really honest with yourself because as you say there's almost an
element of delusion of just thinking I just have to get this made. You need to keep going
regardless and you just sort of try and believe but it is a bit mad because you also don't
know.
But I think along the way you know there were signals that we were on to something. We
got a development grant and that gave me confidence to keep going, because you're
thinking okay this big organization that I've always respected and admired and want to
be a part of that family have given me money now, so I've got to take this a lot more
seriously, because the bar has been raised. It was me and Gannesh for many years and
22
then we did a first edit, that didn't work unfortunately for various reasons, and we went
back to the drawing board and continued filming. Then we began working with Zana,
and we edited with Zanna Wood Dixon who cut Poly Styrene: I Am A Cliché who's just
incredible, and was a real key collaborator in this. The film wouldn't have the heart that
it does without her. And then we brought Ruben in to shoot a few of the extra big
cinematic scenes, the scene that you see in the market at night, and a few other people
on the books, and the composers. I'm really hoping I'm not forgetting anyone!
Angela Clarke
When I was watching it, I was thinking my God I wonder how much footage you had
before you went into the edit, because you can tell by the intimacy that you've got on
camera, that footage has come from a long-haul period of you just hanging with people.
There are some beautiful moments, and for me sometimes it's just in those smaller
scenes, as you say with Miles’ , his body language gives off the energy of a man that is
kind of trying to make himself smaller. He's a man that seems to kind of give off an
energy, he's quite thoughtful, and as you say he speaks but he keeps himself to himself
and is quite chilled.
And I just thought there's such a lovely intimacy with you and him and Mac, especially in
the moments where they are both speaking to each other, and you think they've
forgotten she's there. And that's a lovely thing to have, but you only ever get that when
you spend a long time with people, and you go on that journey in your film in so many
sequences but in that environment sometimes there are so many gems in amongst that
footage. You didn't set out and say we're going to film blah and blah moments today,
and for me the moments in that film that are beautiful, are the moments that just
happened, and nobody can foresee that day how that things are going to pan out.
So, part me was thinking how difficult is that to edit? Do you know how many hours of
footage you had before you went into the edit, just as a ballpark?
Alice Russell
I don’t, but yeah hundreds of hours, loads of stuff. But also, in a way I would say…
(pauses) miraculously, the scene with the kid who's been shot in the face with the
firework, that was actually very early on. That was within the first 3 or 4 times that I went
out miraculously, but I would say there were lots of other things as you say where I'm
hanging out, I'm not going with a plan, I'm just going to see what happens and film it as
it's unfolding.
And so, I think lots of the early footage was almost like live casting, it was never going to
make it into a cut. I mean there were some great moments, but they weren't sequences
and, in a way, that was the hardest thing to put down, because there were so many of
these moments that were gems but they weren't sequences.
Angela Clarke
I'd assumed that you'd started with Mac because as you say Mac is the kind of leader of
the club. And then I thought I wonder how long it took you to get Miles on board.
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Because I know Miles seems to be a kind of like, I don't know if I'm saying it right, but a
kind of second in command, they certainly both seem to be kind of senior in the group.
Alice Russell
Yeah, he's an elder who sort of very influential and has been helping get young kids into
riding for sure.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, because I suppose the other thing that I wondered was, given the size of the
events that you're filming at, I was thinking God it be so easy to split focus because I bet
there's loads of great characters within that group and I bet there's lots of great sub
threads and sub stories. Or were you always clear from the off that you were just going
to home in on the two characters?
Alice Russell
Well no. The kid that you meet in the basketball court scene, Mike who's on tag, I don't
know if you remember him, but he's on tag…
Angela Clarke
I do, with the Battenberg cake?
Alice Russell
With the Battenberg cake exactly (laughs) I love that.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, me too but I didn’t think that'd be a snack of choice, but there we go! (laughs)
Alice Russell
I loved Mike, I loved Mike so much. I met him right at the beginning. I met him before I
went to film with Calvin the guy with the eye. And he's this tiny little 14-year-old kid, he
looked tiny, and he was on tag at that point. I spoke to him and was asking him about
what was going on and he just said, if I'd have met all these guys before, I never would
have gotten into this trouble, and this had changed my life. But when he spoke, he had
this heavy old man voice, but he looked like this tiny child. But when he spoke, he just
had the weight of the world on his shoulders.
And I went to his sentencing, and heard the defence talk about what happened to him in
his life and I mean it was just awful, what he'd been through. And you’re just thinking
well of course this kid has ended up in the situation. I mean I think that was one of the
main things that I felt very strongly, and I wanted people to also feel very strongly.
If most people had ended up in the situations that these young people find themselves
in, they would not have made different decisions or very likely wouldn't have made
different choices because that is the nature of how this thing works. But I really wanted
Mike to be a character in the film because I just I loved him, and I thought he was so
charming and such an underdog. But his life was so chaotic, and I just couldn't make it
24
work. But I think also this film wouldn't have been made if it hadn't been so free-flowing,
and I hadn't just been able to go out on my bike.
There wasn't a whole production team saying we've got the health and safety forms
have you signed this off and blah blah blah because I wouldn't have got anything if it had
been like that. And of so many occasions where I would go to meet up with people, I'd
wait three hours before someone would arrive, or they wouldn't turn up. Or I was there
when someone was stabbed. There were just loads of mad things, but yeah Mike, I really
wanted him to be a character, but we just couldn't make it work in the edit. And then as
you say, it's trying to sort of force a story arc on the film, to give it that momentum and
also just to give the characters enough space to really allow the audience into their
world and into their heads and not dilute that down too much.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, and I think that's what the film does beautifully because I think it could have been
easy in a space like that because there are so many horrific statistics that illuminate
and highlight what's going on in some of those areas and some of the things the kids are
facing. The reason why I thought the film in and of itself was beautiful is because it just
allowed you to just be with those people, rather than it focusing on the statistics, it was
kind of looking at the realities.
Miles unfolding narrative for me was interesting because you're thinking well look where
that kid started, as he says, he ended up in a gang just by stealth really. He didn't make a
choice, he just ended up in one because of the area that he was in. And then the journey
that he goes on to come out the other side, then having a baby and a second kid at some
point. That's the thing that makes him think look I'm now responsible for somebody
else's life, that's the trigger to give him the shift to move away. But also, how difficult it is
to stay on the right side of the track.
I think it's so rare that you see something over such a long period of time that allows you
to be on that person's journey and then when you look where he is in those moments in
the film, where he's talking about the fear of people that he knows who have been in
prison that are coming back out, to that big massive smile he's got on his face at the end
when they are in the woods cycling. That takes all those years of just hanging about
doesn't it, to capture those kinds of moments. Those things in and of themselves are
much more potent, because you cared about that person now.
Plus, you can see he grows in confidence which is the other thing that's beautiful. His
body language is just… how he stands, and his shoulders are a bit more open. He's not
trying to make himself small and slightly invisible in a way. And when he's encouraging
the other boys at the end, I wondered was it difficult to not go down the route of being
too statistical, or having too many council meetings and things like that? Because
obviously you need the council meetings for Mac to allow himself to, and he does very
eloquently, air his feelings in those meetings. But was it difficult to pull back and just
spend time with him being in and of the moment.
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Alice Russell
Yeah, just to pick up on one of the things you said about the scene in the woods at the
end. That was at a time when Miles, things were bad because the thing you obviously
can't see in the film in the same way we we're talking about Terra Incognita is there's so
much happening off screen that is very difficult to capture or to communicate to the
audience without it becoming text-heavy or whatever.
But stuff was very bad for Miles at one point, and I was incredibly worried about him. I
was trying to find him emergency housing and the woods scene came in the kind of
middle of that, and what's amazing is obviously when you're editing films, you're trying
to show these changes in states. Sometimes they’re artificially created or whatever. But
what you see on the bus with him just being in a kind of funky mood and everyone else is
laughing and having a joyous time. Miles was just heavy, is what it was.
And then just watching him in the woods and that weight just shed, and the smiles cut
through, it was just so gorgeous, like this is your happy places. And we wanted to
include that scene but didn't really know because it's so incongruous compared to
everything else. Also, what does it say that the only place they're kind of happy, is
outside of London. But Zana quite early on said I think this should be the end and I was
just like oh my God yes, let's do that. That's amazing.
But this was part of my learning journey because I'm really interested in the politics. I
love the politics. I love the big picture stuff. I love the ideology. I like all the themes and
talking about that stuff. But when we did the first edit of the film, there was just way too
much of that and I think through a process of having done it wrong, you learn what is
right. And one of the reasons I really wanted to work with Zanna was because I'd
watched her body of work, and I’d seen how she moved me in Poly Styrene: I Am A
Cliché. I wasn't expecting to be moved in that way, and I found myself crying at the end
and I just was like this is someone who really has a lot of heart and can bring that
warmth to the film. Zana really helped me think about that and kind of pulled that out of
the footage really, it was her idea to do some more master interviews and get more of
this stuff.
Again, we did these interviews with Miles and bless him, he was just talking nonstop for
hours, and I just was thinking I don't know if we managed to get what we needed there,
does it work? And then we got it into the edit, and it was just so strong and it was really
great and it just became clear that the best way to get people to care and feel political
about this story was through connecting with the characters, because the political is in
the personal. If you win people's hearts over and they connect to the people, then they
care about the situations they're in and the world that we've created for those people
and all that kind of stuff.
Ultimately the film became about wanting to change stereotypes about young people
and when you meet all these guys, for example the first time I went to meet them was in
the park (one of the big parks featured in the film). There were about 500 young kids, all
in track suit bottoms on their bikes. All boys, and I remember walking in and thinking my
God this is incredibly intimidating. And the moment I walked in through this packed
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park, squeezing through bikes, all the kids would say excuse me, ‘Sorry Miss, am I in
your way’? And they were just so lovely and playful and silly. I mean obviously there are
bad apples, of course there are.
But ultimately, they have this look which has been perpetuated through negative
stereotypes by the right-wing press, violent kids in hoods and stereotypes of antisocial
youth but all these kids just have the maddest stories and come from really difficult
corners of the world. They're beautiful and they're rebellious despite that and I fell in
love with them and wanted other people to fall in love with them. I think Miles is so
generously open and just opens his life to the world and that’s testament to him.
Angela Clarke
What it made me think about that I'd never really thought about before was, I'd never
thought about the freedom and the exhilarating thrill that people get from biking. You
tend to think sometimes of bikes being a vehicle that gets you from A to B. I never really
thought for him that it was that kind of emptying your mind, there was a dopamine rush
or a euphoria that comes from cycling. Or a high that feels amazing when you do those
tricks. I'd never had never thought about that before at all and I love that element of the
film because you see cycling in a different way, as well as all the kind of political
undertones that came with the story. I wondered had you given much thought to that or
does that just become so ingrained in you because you cycle or did your editor notice
that as well when you were making the cuts at the end.
Alice Russell
Yeah, I mean that was always so important to me because that's how I feel and the
embarrassing question I always get asked is can you wheelie and I'm like no I can't
wheelie! Because I was obsessed with filming all the time and anytime something
would happen and I'd try and do something on a bike I would be so regretful that I wasn't
filming, so I just decided stop and just film because that was what I was there ultimately
to do.
But yeah, I love riding, they love riding. There is this incredible euphoria in riding and the
camaraderie of being in a big gang and whizzing through the streets fast.
And you know Mac talks lots about the mental health benefits. I guess the middle
classes talk about having therapy, and therapy's been so normalized, but they (the kids)
don't have therapy and therapy isn't their tool. Their tool is getting out on their bike, and
there was a beautiful scene when Mac tells one of the counsellors this, about how the
kids are using the bikes to come and connect with each other.
They're going through the same things, but they can come, and ride and they don't have
to talk about it, but they feel a sense of solidarity by being together. But as is always the
way, there's so many things that you can't put in but that was always important. And part
of that is because they all loved these events and they can't wait to get out and do it, but
it's also because Mac is so engaging. He's so charismatic and inspiring. He's such an
inspiring speaker and there's so many Bike Stormz and so many speeches and they all
say different things, it was hard to know which was the right one but that one we settled
on.
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But the euphoria of biking - there were two bits that I knew I wanted to bring out
cinematically. It was how do you bring out the kind of euphoria and beauty and skillset.
These kids are like athletes, the things that they can do are just extraordinary. How do
you bring out the euphoria, and how do you bring out the fear, because that's another
important emotion that's quite hard to capture in those observational scenes. They
were the two kinds of things that we felt we needed to build into the narrative.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, Mac is like some sort of urban poet, isn't he? He's a good public speaker. And has
a lovely turn of phrase as well, and a good energy. But it's just amazing when you see
somebody command such a big space and everybody is so engaged, it was just
beautiful to watch.
I also wanted to ask you, there were some shots I thought how is she doing that, on the
bikes. You were super low down in the shot, there's a bit I think you're going over a bridge
or something and there's people coming past you closely so where were you sitting on
the bike? I was thinking how is she doing that? I can understand what she is cycling on! I
don't understand what's going on here (laughs).
Alice Russell
So that was Ruben. Most of the excellent riding shots are Ruben. He is an incredible
cinematographer and is a bit of a mad scientist and is up for adventure, so we had this
kind of cargo bike with a seat on the front, it’s an electric powered cargo bike.
Angela Clarke
Ah, yeah, yeah.
Alice Russell
arm things…
And so, he's sat at the front with a big, I can’t remember what they called but the crane
Angela Clarke
Easy rig.
Alice Russell
Yeah, exactly with the camera attached, and I'm sat behind him with the monitor and
because he's just so up for the thrill of it, he's just throwing the camera around. He's
dangling over the side and just getting all these incredible wheely shots.
Angela Clarke
Right. Yes, because I was trying to figure that out. I thought she's amazing at cycling and
holding that camera I thought what is going on.
Alice Russell
I mean honestly no, no, no like I realised at the beginning, when I was trying to shoot
stuff on a phone whilst I was cycling it was obviously just terrible. And then there was
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one session Rubin had got all this amazing stuff from a Bike Stormz and I thought great
thanks so much. Then he couldn't come to the next one and I thought you know what, I'll
do it. I'm sure I can do. It's fine (laughs) and there are just loads of pictures of me in this
Easy Rig, which looks hilarious, but the footage was just so bad, (laughing) but I was like
thank you Ruben, I don't know how you did it but he's just an incredible
cinematographer.
Angela Clarke
I thought that's an insane shot and also because it was so low to the ground that I was
thinking how are they cycling, it should have been obvious that there had been a cart
but I was just thinking how are they doing, I thought have they fixed something just
above the wheel and then I thought no because there's movement and so it was
boggling my brain a bit.
At the start of that journey, you never know how things are going to land when it comes
to an end and how audiences are going to warm to it, and you mentioned briefly early
about like having the final cinema screening and having everybody there. I think it's
always surreal when you see your own films in cinemas because if you're used to things
being on TV , you never really get to hear an audience respond. You might hear what
people say, or you might read what people say on Twitter, or X, but we don't viscerally
hear people. So how mad was that for you and for the guys?
Alice Russell
It was so amazing. I think you're totally right. You know on the one hand, in one sense
sorry the TV thing is incredible obviously because it means a much wider audience is
going to see it. But as a filmmaker, it's anticlimactic, because it's gone out into the world
and you’ve no idea you know! Whereas when we had the London Film Festival
premiere, the audience was just incredible, and I could never have imagined what that
would feel like ever in my life. I think that's why it was such a special evening because
I've had shorts screen at festivals before. I think maybe I saw Agents of Change with an
audience. I can't remember if I saw Men Buy Sex with an audience but it’s just
completely different because you're obviously in a collection of short films.
But everyone's come to see just this film, and everyone laughed in the right places and
booed in the right places and the energy I've never honestly, the hilarious thing is I'm
sure like everybody on your podcast has said this because everybody after LFF was like
that was the most electric screening I've ever been in. All the filmmakers were saying
that, but I've never experienced that in the cinema before, the electricity in the audience
and when the credits rolled, just the support and love. You could just feel the
overwhelming amount of love in that room. You know it makes me emotional kind of
thinking about it now.
We all got on stage, and I just turned and looked at Miles, and Miles’ face was just
covered in tears, like completely wet, and then it just set me off and then we were all
just crying and there was like a five-minute standing ovation. It was just, there's
something so special about going to the cinema and watching films altogether and
going on the roller-coaster of that journey. There is this beautiful New Yorker article
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which I keep telling people about a university in America where a scientist was scanning
people's brains whilst they're watching Hitchcock films.
And there's this incredible kind of synchronicity that happens with specific films in
terms of how they're obviously plotted with suspense and stuff. But your neurons fire at
the same time as the people's next to you, in the same part of your brain and so I was
just like thinking about that and being in the cinema. Then a year later we did the cinema
release and a selection of Q&A screenings and similarly it's just always wonderful, you
know in the way that you are today, it's amazing to hear that people have thought about
this stuff and kind of see all these things that you maybe almost even forget as well
because you've just been doing it for so long. But the audiences are just always so
thoughtful and supportive. And yeah, it's a special experience.
Angela Clarke
Yeah, well that's the thing and I think there are moments sometimes as well, it can just
feel like such a long journey that you just think will I ever get there, will that day ever
come and then when it comes, it feels a bit like a dream. In a way I imagine it’s a bit like
a wedding. You've been building up to this thing isn't it, then it's almost like you must
remind yourself to enjoy the event in the moment because it's what we've all worked
towards. This is the thing that I thought or kept hoping that I could do, but now it's finally
here and then it feels a bit surreal.
Alice Russell
Definitely.
Angela Clarke
Also, in my head I was imagining outside that cinema there was going to be a ton of
bikes locked up (laughing).
Alice Russell
Do you know what, the thing that was disappointing was none of the boys rode. I was
the only person that came on my bike because they, well it makes sense, in their
culture, but I was imagining we were going to all do loads of tricks together and hang
out, but they don't have bike locks first of all ….
Angela Clarke
Ahhh okay.
Alice Russell
And they all wanted to dress nicely which is fair enough. So, they didn't want to come in
their sports gear, so they chose to have a have a fancy evening out. But just going back
on what you just said. Honestly, I don't know if I will ever get married or that's the way
that I will live my life, but I feel like the London Film Festival premiere was the equivalent
of my wedding. Just having the most exhilarating emotional experience, being
surrounded by all these people you love, particularly because there was so much
jeopardy.
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Before London Film Festival, we had this six-week period where we were raising £25,000
to get us to our London Film Festival premiere without which we would have had to pull
out. The fact that we climbed this humongous mountain before going to LFF and then
being there and on stage and being like wow, we did it. But it is also totally obliterating
and surreal. I loved that day, but it was also so intense and kind of almost like out of
body experience that it's a bit overwhelming. And people to this day have said I was at
your premiere and I’m thinking, sorry I just can't really remember anything because it
was so overwhelming. I've never experienced anything like that in my life but, very
thankful.
Angela Clarke
Well, it's a lovely film and hopefully as you say it’s on the BBC as part of the Storyville
strand so that can keep living in those audiences for a long time and raise awareness of
all the kind of issues that people face. And it's one of those things that when you watch
it, it just seems such a mad thing when you think what Mac’s asking for and what he’s
saying are simple ideas and it just feels so wild that people don't get that. That's the
thing that's almost the most bonkers about the film. Why does nobody understand that
it's complicated for these kids to cycle in other areas, it's not a complicated idea that
he's promoting. I suppose just seeing the fact that there are people's lives who's are
moved and changed within that film shows that what he's saying is true. You can do
something amazing with this. And so just the very nature of making it to the finish line
and getting that product out in the world will probably hopefully leave a legacy that will
show people that this is what's possible and these projects are amazing.
Alice Russell
I hope so and I think so many people think about this community as being antisocial
youths in hoods and that audience is probably the BDPC audience. I've had several
people get in touch with me after watching the film being like I used to be really
intimidated by this crew I just thought they were hooligans and now I know and that is an
incredible legacy. If it means that the public are more understanding, engaging and
generous and celebratory of what they're doing and don't see them as a menace, that
would be a really great thing to have come out of the film. And in real world terms Miles
was the stunt rider in Daniel Kaluuay’s film The Kitchen and Gassed Up.
Angela Clarke
Cool.
Alice Russell
Yeah and loads of the boys were in The Kitchen and lots of the boys have gone on to like
do stunt riding on Top Boy and there's real world kind of tangible outcomes for them
which is really cool.
Angela Clarke
No stunt riding gigs for you though yet?
Alice Russell
Not yet sadly not.
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Angela Clarke
Give it time Alice, give it time. It will come.
Alice Russell
Give me 10 years!
Angela Clarke
Thank you so much for speaking today I've really enjoyed it and yeah, good luck with
everything in the future.
Alice Russell
Thanks Angela yeah, it's meaningful and thank you for the retrospective because it is
quite easy to kind of forget the big journey that you've been on and it’s really nice to look
back. Thank you for chatting to me about it.
Angela Clarke
Thak you for coming on, much appreciated.
Thank you for listening to One Stop Doc Shop Podcast. If you want to keep up to
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This was a Wheesht Films Production, made possible with support from
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